Lucy A. McLaren

Hello! Thank you for joining me today for a chat about our shared love of writing, gaming and storytelling. First up, tell me a bit about yourself—as both a gamer and a writer.

Hi. I’m Daniel M. Ford, author of The Paladin Trilogy, The Jack Dixon Novels and, most recently, The Warden (coming in April from Tor Books!). I’m primarily a fantasy novelist, with a little side-dive into mystery. I’ve been a gamer since the days when you had to go to an Arcade to play them. If it’s any indication of my aesthetic, Dragon Slayer probably ate more of my childhood quarters than any other game. My deepest and truest gaming love is the fantasy RPG; the Gold Box D&D Games are some of my oldest favorites, some of which I just replayed this past year. I grew up on Sierra and Lucasarts Adventure games (King’s Quest) and strategy games like Warlords and, of course, absolutely any game I could find based on any of the fantasy novels I loved (War in Middle Earth, Riders of Rohan, Betrayal at Krondor).

As for how gaming intersects with my writing, the very first fantasy novel I started was essentially fan-fiction based on my characters in the 1989 Origins RPG Knights of Legend, which remains one of my all-time favorite CRPGs, though I think I am one of a half-dozen people who remember it at all. Character driven games where my decisions matter and I get to engage with some tactical crunch are generally my favorite kind of game; The Baldur’s Gate trilogy is probably my favorite series of all time. If what you want in a fantasy novel is an assembly of weirdos who become a found family amidst swords and sarcasm and trauma, you’re in the sweet spot for the games I like and the books I write. 

That’s great. It sounds as though your fantasy gaming and reading interests were aligned quite early on. I love the Baldur’s Gate games, and remember being drawn into them around the time I was watching The Lord of the Rings films and delving deeper into fantasy books. I think there’s something to be said for games with that character-driven element you mentioned. Perhaps they’re more like reading books than other games, and that’s what creates the overlap in enjoyment between the two.

Overall,  do you think the writing of your first fantasy novel was more influenced by your gaming or reading interests? It was a fan fiction based on your Knights of Legend characters, but I wonder whether it was the stories you were reading or playing at the time which spurred you on in that urge to write more.

Certainly the books I read were and remain more influential on my writing than the games I played. The CRPGs of the 80/90s really didn’t have the capacity to create the branching, character-driven, emotionally-investing stories we expect our RPGs to be now, with Baldur’s Gate, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, The Elder Scrolls, etc. And while that first book may have been set in the world of a long-forgotten RPG, it certainly didn’t match up with the story. At the time I was playing those first games, I was reading Tolkien, Robert Jordan, David Eddings, Joel Rosenberg, Melanie Rawn, and so I was initially trying to imitate the archetypes and the heroic journeys their books contained. The common thread between the games I enjoyed and the books I read was probably this; a small group of people went on some kind of long journey together, faced many dangers, got powerful along the way, and changed the world. Both books and games offered this kind of heroic journey, but books did so with much grander texture and immersion. 

Absolutely. When you first started writing, the books you read offered a far more immersive experience than games were able to at the time. Recent games, of course, seem to have an open world whether or not the stories call for it or not—almost like a book giving the reader way too much information that’s just not necessary. As a lifelong gamer, what’s been your favourite recent release? And do you think games now come closer to capturing that grander texture and immersion which books have given us for so many years?

I would have to say my favorite recent release is Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. Based on my previous answers this probably could’ve been guessed; it’s a deep, tactically challenging RPG with a cast of well developed characters who all have their own storylines, branching paths, momentous choices, all of the stuff I was saying tends to draw me into a game. I was also enjoying Solasta: Crown of the Magister because it was a great implementation of the 5E DnD ruleset, a good tactical challenge, and a really nice throwback in some ways. 

I do think games come closer now to what I look for in a book but they are still definitely different forms. As you say, a game can offer far more information than I actually want or need, with the number of in-game texts; in a book I want world-building to serve the story and not be flung at me from every quarter. There are plenty of games now that seem to require a great deal of reading on the part of an involved player. I try and read every word but I will admit that on a second playthrough, or if I find a cut-scene is going on too long, I might skip or skim. I think a fundamental difference, too, between the games I play and the books I read is the amount of violence/overcoming of obstacles in a game. If a fantasy novel had the body count of a Pathfinder or a Baldur’s Gate game, I’d probably stop reading it. This is not to say I’m against violent books or games; I’m not. But I wouldn’t want to read a book where the main character personally slaughters hundreds of enemies in blow-by-blow descriptions, or kept kill stats (which get their own screen on a character sheet in Baldur’s Gate).

Those both sound like really fun games—and it’s clear you like a challenge! You mentioned DnD; as an aside is that another aspect of gaming which has influenced your writing?

It’s interesting to see where the line is drawn between your enjoyment of games and books though. If you came across a book which had as much worldbuilding and unnecessary information as a game, you’d likely skip over those parts or stop reading it—same if there was as much violence as there can be in video games (sometimes quite gratuitously). What do you think it is about video games which gives this leniency, if we can call it that, towards those aspects which would turn you off a book? Do you think playing as the character, and therefore having the element of choice as to what you do and don’t to (to some extent at least) helps keep your interest in gaming?

I think if anything, D&D and tabletop RPGs in general have influenced me far more than video games have. My gaming group has been together in one form or another since 1999 and I’ve been playing D&D for much longer than that. 

I think in games we just expect a lot more active participation. Whether that means puzzle solving or strategy or tactics or shooting or what have you. In today’s AAA game climate, we also expect playing the game to take dozens of hours at least. A book might take that long to read but it’s unlikely we’re going to find the “fight/puzzle/challenge/cut scene” rhythm we’ve come to expect in games. I also remember once reading a novel adaptation of a video game I’d played (I won’t mention the novel or the game series) that was so clearly a blow by blow, level by level account of playing that game that I couldn’t stand it. Maybe other readers have different thresholds for that kind of thing. The games I enjoy the most tend to have strong tactical elements so you kind of expect to employ those a lot in different, challenging combat scenarios that I think are a lot more fun to play than to read, for me. I’d love to say that making different choices is something that draws me back to games but I keep making the same choices no matter what. I’ve never done a playthrough of Baldur’s Gate 2 without Minsc and Jaheira – I just can’t! I am rarely able to get far into a game without playing either a ranger or paladin character of some kind (I can in tabletop, but in a video game I play to my strengths). 

That makes sense, really, because tabletop games and DnD require so much more of our imagination to play. That’s so cool to have been part of a gaming group since 1999! I’m jealous. Do you play as a character or are you GM?

I think you’re right about the expectation of active participation in video games. By their very nature, we have to make the choices in games which are made by the authors in the books we read. There has to be an awareness of that difference, I think, when we write utilising any influences from other types of creative storytelling. Like that book you mentioned (and I believe I may have read the same one, if not one that had very similar issues) which based itself completely on the game level-by-level. That format doesn’t work when you haven’t got a game in front of you to explore—why would it? It’s dull yet also, strangely, overwhelming. Books need to be a lot more intentional on the author’s part, giving the information necessary for the reader’s enjoyment without info dumping.

This brings me on to your latest release, The Warden. Your first fantasy trilogy, The Paladin Trilogy, very much followed that formula, if you will, that you mentioned earlier: an assembly of weirdos (though I think they’re a great bunch!) who become a found family of sorts. Does The Warden follow a similar theme? There seems to be a lot more magic focus in this book (based on the blurb), but I do wonder whether your love of ranger and paladin came to the fore a little whilst you wrote it? (That made me laugh, by the way, because I am the same—except I always have to go for the barbarian/warrior character!).

I have done both GM and play but more often I’ve probably been the Gamemaster. I currently run “The One Ring” (2nd Edition) for an online group consisting of folks who live anywhere from 10 minutes away from me to the UK and Canada. 

This sounds so fun! I’m intrigued and a little jealous.

The Warden has some of the same “found family/collection of weirdos” vibe but I would say not quite as much as The Paladin Trilogy. That book (and those that will follow it) are much more focused on one character, a young, fresh from the magical university Necromancer (also Abjurer and Enchanter, but mostly the first) named Aelis. There’s a whole lot more magic in this one since the protagonist is a wizard, and a magic system that’s a little more systematized and recognizable to people who play games than the kind of eldritch, frightening magic of The Paladin Trilogy. In those books I tried to posit magic as something that will absolutely consume the user in the end. It’s safer in The Warden but still ripe for abuse. As for my love of rangers and paladins, there’s certainly no paladins in this book (and maybe not in that world). But one of the deuteragonists is a bit of a reclusive half-orc mountain man. If I were to have to give him a ‘class’ designation, he’d certainly be a Ranger. I have a not very well formed idea that eventually, all in different worlds, I’ll write a book from the point of view of every one of the ‘base’ classes of your typical RPG. I’ve done Paladin, I’m doing Wizard, and I have a completed stand-alone novel MS that’s all about your basic Fighters, but I really can’t say more about it than that. 

Leaving us on tenterhooks there, Dan! But I must say, The Warden sounds fantastic. I’m especially looking forward to checking it out now that you’ve mentioned that magic system. Was there any particular influence behind its creation?

I think that magic in The Warden will not be unfamiliar to anyone who has played RPGs in their life. But it’s not the pure Vancian “prepare these spells from a book and then cast them.” It’s something of both science and art in the world of The Warden. It has an academic apparatus so it can clearly be taught, but it’s also capable of surprises and mysteries even to dedicated practitioners. If magic in fiction isn’t capable of mystery, then I say it isn’t really magic, and I’m not terribly interested in the pure gamification of magic in fiction… but that’d be a whole separate essay. 

That sounds great. Your aim to was strike a balance, then, between the RPG magic systems you’re familiar with but also avoiding the over gamification of the magic in your book. I agree that wouldn’t work—and you should write that essay!

So, to wrap up, can you tell us when and where we can grab ourselves a copy of The Warden—and where readers can keep updated with your upcoming novels?

Thanks for the opportunity to ramble and chat about my favorite video games! 

THE WARDEN is available now from Tor Books. Get it anywhere books are sold; Amazon, Barnes&Noble, your independent bookstore, audible, and so on. Best way to stay connected with what I’m doing is to follow me on Twitter @soundingline.

Thanks for the great chat, Dan.